Our Topic of the Evening is Reason:

~Update: It was an interesting evening. I tried my Quirkology experiments, which didn’t go over so well since I didn’t have enough of the methodology and results of the studies they came from (yay for being skeptical, everyone!), Gerald brought in a great textbook and we did a few questions from that, Butch talked about the things that aren’t reasonable that people still believe in – superstitions – and we had a good discussion from that, and David brought in a quote from his favorite book – the Celtic Twilight by Yates, if I recall – which also sparked an interesting discussion.

Then we went to The Lavender Cafe for more great conversation and delicious food.

~

4. sound judgment; good sense.
8. to think or argue in a logical manner.
9. to form conclusions, judgments, or inferences from facts or premises.
11. to think through logically, as a problem.

Let’s celebrate reason, common sense and critical thinking by real life experiments or logical puzzles. Everyone bring in a couple real life experiments we can do without disturbing anyone, or a reasoning puzzle we can figure out together. (we might only have time for one, but it would be better to have extras to choose from)

If you bring in an experiment, it might be nice to explain how the scientific method works. Or if you bring in a reasoning puzzle, explain how critical thinking and reasoning works.

For some ideas, you could try these sources:

• Professor Richard Wiseman has a Friday Puzzle and also does quirky science experiments
  • I’m combing through his book Quirkology for some experiments we can try together
• Try Googling brain puzzle, reason puzzle, logical thinking puzzle, etc.
• Try Googling science party experiment, although most of these involve explosions. Not a good idea at the Blue Moose!

If you have good ideas to spare, leave comments to share with the rest of us!

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• Curiosity Aroused: Investigation, Exploration and the pursuit of truth. This show is built upon the idea that it’s fun to seek out the answers to life’s questions. This is a Skepchick/Rebecca Watson podcast. This is quite new, so there are only 3 episodes, but it’s interesting and well done.
• Skeptics With A K: The podcast by the Merseyside Skeptics Society in the UK. This is entertaining, fun and informative. These guys are like SGU in the UK. They are the ones that did the Homeopathy 10²³ “overdose” event. It was brilliant.
• The Skeptics Testament: this is a fairly new podcast (since January of this year). I just found it and am not sure what to make of it, but I wanted to share it with you. It’s a skeptical, critical look at the bible. But I can’t figure out if they are atheists or christians. (Edit: I think they said they are atheists in the 4th episode, or thereabouts). But they seem to know their stuff from what I can tell from the first 2 episodes, and it’s informative.
• EDIT: I forgot about The Token Skeptic: a weekly look at superstition, paranormal belief and the science behind it all. The podcast covers a range of ideas and issues, stemming from psychology, philosophy and ethics, science, critical thinking, literacy and education.

Edit: Gerald recommended a bunch of podcasts:

• MonsterTalk: presented by Skeptic Magazine. Critically examines the science behind cryptozoological creatures.
• Skepticality with Derek and Swoopy. The official podcast of Skeptic Magazine. With interviews and information on science and skepticism.
• Skeptoid with Brian Dunning: A primer on a single pseudo-scientific or paranormal topic.
• The Amazing Show with James Randi: a fireside chat.
• The Skeptic Zone: Australian podcast for Science and Reason. Varied and light-hearted.
• Skeptically Speaking: Canadian interview-format live radio call-in talk show with host Desiree Schell.
• The Reality Check: The Ottawa Skeptics talk show podcast.
• The Pseudo Scientists: the Young Australian Skeptics talk show podcast.
• Geologic Podcast: A skeptical comedy rant show from rock musician George Hrab. For a mature audience.
• Audiomartini: A radio program relating to the paranormal from a skeptic’s point of view
• Afternoon Tea with Richard Wiseman: An interview show hosted by psychologist Richard Wiseman.
• Are We Alone? SETI’s science and skepticism podcast, with host Seth Shostack. (subscribe through iTunes)
• Brain Science Podcast: weekly neuroscience show, hosted by physician Ginger Campbell.

If you try these out, let us know what you think!

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Thanks, Gerald!

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~Edit: I’ve added descriptions for you!

Brent’s Favs:

• The Center for Inquiry’s Point of Inquiry: Point of Inquiry explores CFI’s three research areas:
  • Pseudoscience and the paranormal (Bigfoot, UFOs, psychics, communication with the dead, cryptozoology, etc.)
  • Alternative medicine (faith healing, homeopathy, “healing touch,” the efficacy of prayer, etc.)
  • Religion, humanism, and secularism (church-state separation, the effects and proper role of religion in society, the future of secularism and nonbelief, etc.)
    Rotating hosts Chris Mooney, Karen Stollznow, and Robert Price bring engaging and thought-provoking interviews and commentary on a broad range of topics to each episode of Point of Inquiry.
• NPR’s Science Friday: A weekly radio talk show on NPR from 2-4pm on Fridays. Each week, they focus on science topics that are in the news and try to bring an educated, balanced discussion to bear on the scientific issues at hand. Panels of expert guests join Science Friday’s host, Ira Flatow, a veteran science journalist, to discuss science – and to take questions from listeners during the call-in portion of the program.
• Groks Science Radio Show and Podcast: a weekly science radio program and podcast produced in Chicago, USA and Tokyo, Japan. The show broadcasts on radio stations across the country and can also be heard as a podcast. Each week, the hosts, Dr. Charles Lee and Dr. Frank Ling, take an in-depth look at recent events in the world of science and technology, and examine the effects of recent discoveries on our daily lives.
  Each episode features an interview with a leading scientist, researcher, or industrialist discussing stimulating work in their field. The show often includes a humorous and entertaining segment; plus the world famous question of the week!
• IEET: Changesurfer Radio: a weekly, syndicated public affairs radio show transmitting a sexy, high-tech vision of a radically democratic future
• Fast Forward Radio: A convergence of emerging technologies and emerging possibilities is at the heart of this, the greatest period of transformation in human history. Our world is changing in ways that are hard to predict…sometimes even hard to imagine. FastForward Radio is your guide to an astounding future that lies ahead — and that will be here sooner than you think!

Neece’s Favs:

• SGU: The Skeptic’s Guide to the Universe and a 5 minute weekly podcast at the same place; SGU 5×5: a weekly Science podcast produced by the New England Skeptical Society (NESS) in association with the James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF) : discussing the latest news and topics from the world of the paranormal, fringe science, and controversial claims from a scientific point of view.
• Scientific American’s Science Talk (they have other podcasts here): Join host Steve Mirsky each week as he explores the latest developments in science & technology through interviews.
• Reasonable Doubts (Your Skeptical Guide to Religion): A special focus on counter-apologetics. They provide detailed counter-points to the fallacious logic and blatant misinformation used by religious apologists when attempting to discredit skepticism and provide rational arguments for their dogmas. They also defend the sufficiency of reason, science and naturalistic philosophies to provide a satisfactory and morally compelling understanding of the cosmos, human nature, art and culture. They try to do this all with fair-mindedness and humor. Winner of the Peoples Choice Podcast Award for best religious/inspirational podcast of 2009
• The Naked Scientists and another podcast, Ask the Naked Scientists: The Naked Scientists are a group of physicians and researchers from Cambridge University who use radio, live lectures, and the Internet to strip science down to its bare essentials, and promote it to the general public. Each week, listeners of all ages and backgrounds tune in on a Sunday evening to hear creator Dr. Chris Smith, together with his entertaining scientist sidekicks, interview renowned scientists and researchers from all over the world and take science questions on any subject live from the listening public.
• StarTalk with Neil DeGrasse Tyson: a radio show devoted to all things space and is hosted by renowned astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson.
• Mr. Deity (video, not podcast, but you can subscribe through iTunes): a webshow that looks at the every-day life of the creator and everything he must endure as he attempts to manage his creation.

~Edit:

Tim’s Fav:

• FFRF: Freedom From Religion Foundation: Slightly irreverent views, news, music and interviews

Here’s one from Gerald:

• MonsterTalk. It is all about cryptozoology: bigfoot, Loch Ness monster, etc. It takes a skeptical look at these things and is sponsored by Skeptic Magazine.

Feel free to contribute your favorites!

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Here’s the experiment as explained in the book:

You have a serious conversation with a deeply christian friend. Your friend is intelligent, well educated and knowledgeable. You agree to record the session. The topic is islam. During the session, you discuss that mohammed was a self-appointed prophet and that he claimed he talked to allah and the angels. He wrote a book that he claimed was infallible, and he flew from Jerusalem to heaven on a horse.

During the conversation, you agree that mohammed was probably delusional to think he could talk to god. You agree that the koran was clearly written by mohammed and not allah. It is ludicrous for him to claim that he is the last prophet and that all others are false. Neither you nor your friend can believe that he flew to heaven, let alone on a horse. It all sounds too crazy, and you both agree it is difficult to see how someone could believe such a religion. At the end of the conversation, you say that muslims did not choose their religion; they were born into it. Anyone who was exposed to both christianity and islam would see that christianity is the true religion.

Over the next few days, you transcribe the recording onto paper. Then you change all references to mohammed and make them jesus. Now the document reads something like this:

During the conversation, you both agree that jesus was probably delusional to think he could talk to jehovah. The bible was clearly written by men and not jehovah. You both agree it is ludicrous for jesus to claim that he is the last prophet and that all later ones are false. Neither of you can believe that he rose from the dead, nor flew to heaven. It all sounds too crazy, and it is difficult to see how someone could believe such a religion. At the end of the conversation, you both agree that christians did not choose their religion; they were born into it. Anyone who was exposed to both christianity and islam would see that islam is the true religion.

Now, tell your friend, “I made a transcript of our conversation about islam and would like to go over it with you.” As you read it, watch her reaction. How does she respond to each statement? How soon does she get defensive? How quickly does she start making elaborate arguments that have no more factual basis than the first conversation? If you persist in this line of parallel reasoning, how long before she gets angry or breaks off the conversation? Could this conversation damage your friendship?

You can do this experiment with other prophetic religions. For example, substitute Joseph Smith for mormonism or moses for judaism.

Have you ever tried an experiment like this? Have you ever questioned your friend’s religion? Did it damage your friendship? Or a family member? Does that person still talk to you? How far did your religious friend go to make excuses and explain away his religion in the face of reality?

Cross-posted from Heaving Dead Cats

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The parents don’t want their kids to feel like freaks and also want to help them counter the exasperated ‘you don’t believe in god!’ remarks. Sam, the father, admits that it can be lonely to not believe in god sometimes. I understand. I feel that way too, although not as much as before I belonged to Morgantown Atheists.

Diane, the mother, says they are open to ideas and suggestions. She says they have friends who aren’t religious but still believe in god. It’s not the same thing.

Seeing as how only about 10% of the population would go so far as to actually use the dreaded A-word, it can be isolating to be godless in a sea of believers. As I’ve mentioned, I still keep my atheism to myself when around Butch’s family. Some of them know we’re atheists but it’s never been brought up or mentioned. This means that a huge part of what I spend my time thinking about and being an activist over can’t be talked about when I spend time with others. It’s kind of lonely, in a way.

For Sam and Diane, I suggested they join a local atheist/humanist/freethinker group to get some community support. There’s nothing like simply hanging out with like-minded people to feel more connected. In my personal experience, the benefits of belonging to a local organization are numerous. I have felt much happier since joining. Just knowing there are others who think like me is a great relief, in a way.

I know, many atheists are loners and not into joining. I used to think I was like that too. Then I realized I am just picky. I don’t want to belong to a group that has wildly different values than me. But having a coffee and talking to someone who is also a godless heathen is, well, liberating and intellectually stimulating.

I have to say something now regarding children and atheism. One of my friends, I think it was Dan, recently commented ( I can’t remember if it was here on HDC or Facebook. And I think it was Dan… or Steve. I’m sorry, my friends, I am not positive. Please feel free to correct me) about a conversation he had with his 9 year old daughter. She asked her dad about god. Dan gave a good answer about what god is, and said something along the lines of that’s how a lot of people believe. His daughter asked him what he believed, if he believed in god. Dan explained he is an atheist and that no, he doesn’t. Then he asked her what she thought about god. She said the smartest, most amazing thing, which told me he’s a wonderful dad. She said, “I think I’m too young to decide.”

What that tells me is that Dan is raising his daughter, not to be an atheist, but to think for herself. I think the most important thing you can ever do for a child is to teach them critical thinking. Let them figure things out for themselves. Let them reason and make mistakes. Teach them how to think. Not what to believe.

I’m still thinking about what to tell Sam and Diane’s kids, in how to deal with other kids who are brainwashed with religion already.

Originally I posted this on Heaving Dead Cats and got some great responses. Here are my favorites:

makarios: I’d sure want to know if my kids were saying anything negative to other kids regarding their beliefs (parent’s beliefs). Christians often “get it” if you use the example of, “Well, if Muslim kids were saying your kid’s beliefs were wrong,” or “If your kids had to recite something from the Koran every morning how would you feel?” It might make it worse or it might open up some lines of communication.

Jake M: As far as websites go, I’d highly recommend http://parentingbeyondbelief.com/blog/. It is the blog of Dale McGowan, who co-authored both “Parenting Beyond Belief” and “Raising Freethinkers”
I haven’t had a chance to actually read the books, but judging from the blog, as well as the excepts from the books which are occasionally posted, they’re probably pretty great.
Hope that helps. I know I definitely don’t have any idea how I would raise my kids to be skeptical if I had them. You don’t want to stifle their imagination, but you don’t really want them believing in things which aren’t true, either. It’s definitely a tough balancing act.

Buffy: It makes me sick how Christians like to claim they’re “persecuted” for their beliefs and that their children are teased for believing. Yet they have no qualms about harassing others for not believing, for not being in the “proper” sect, for being the “wrong” type of believer, for being LGBT (or anything else “god” doesn’t approve of) etc. Funny how it’s OK when they’re doing the harassing. And of course refusing to let them harass you is also a form of “persecution”….

Diego: Same here Buffy. Kids can be cruel, but the outrageous thing about these cases is that parents will usually encourage kids to keep “evangelizing” (this is, bullying) other kids for their lack of belief. I’d say get together with other non-believing parents (if possible) and instruct the kid how simmilar god is to Santa Claus. That’s the only solutions I can think that might be applied to several cases. Oh, and sign the kids for learn martial arts lessons. Not only in case the christian kids might want to share some christian love, but because it gives control to the person.

Johnny:

There’s nothing like simply hanging out with like-minded people to feel more connected. In my personal experience, the benefits of belonging to a local organization are numerous. I have felt much happier since joining. Just knowing there are others who think like me is a great relief, in a way.

I personally can’t say enough about this too; my wife and I spending time with some local groups has been a huge relief.

An article from earlier this year that I thought was cool: Parents Gather to Nurture Nonbelief

I’ve not read them myself, but heard from several other atheist parents that Parenting Beyond Belief and Raising Freethinkers are very good (both by Dale McGowan, and mentioned by Jake M above). Dale also has a YouTube channel: Parenting Beyond Belief.

The article Raise Critical Thinkers, Not Atheists was pretty good; and the host site, AtheistParents.org, has some other good resources.

Skepchick’s entry on ‘They Might Be Giants’ release of a kids music CD, Here Comes Science.

Rational Moms Blog

Skeptic.com’s Junior Skeptics Mix Tape, a list of songs of science and skepticism for kids. All free to download MP3s.

Do you have any suggestions, websites, or books that might help them? If you come to the December 6 meeting, bring your ideas and suggestions. We’ll be talking about it briefly then.

EDIT: If there is enough interest, we’ll have a whole meeting in January about nonbelievers raising kids to think for themselves. Let us know if that topic is interesting to you.

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Of course the Mayans themselves didn’t survive till 2012, so maybe they aren’t the best group to ask about such things.

Recently a friend of mine mentioned the 2012 phenomenon as if it were true. Unfortunately I didn’t have the hard facts at my disposal so I told him it’s not going to happen and left it at that. But I thought I’d look up some more information so when your mother starts talking about the end of the world, you will have some facts to back you up.

Lucky for me, NASA and Wikipedia have pages to explain where the concept came from and what scientific basis there is for it (none, thank you very much).

Some people seem to love the idea of predicting cataclysmic events and the destruction of the world. Of course, since we’re still here, so far they have been wrong every time. That’s something in itself to consider.

NASA explains it all very succinctly in FAQ form:

Q: Are there any threats to the Earth in 2012? Many Internet websites say the world will end in December 2012.
A: Nothing bad will happen to the Earth in 2012. Our planet has been getting along just fine for more than 4 billion years, and credible scientists worldwide know of no threat associated with 2012.

Q: What is the origin of the prediction that the world will end in 2012?
A: The story started with claims that Nibiru, a supposed planet discovered by the Sumerians, is headed toward Earth. This catastrophe was initially predicted for May 2003, but when nothing happened the doomsday date was moved forward to December 2012. Then these two fables were linked to the end of one of the cycles in the ancient Mayan calendar at the winter solstice in 2012 — hence the predicted doomsday date of December 21, 2012.

Q: Does the Mayan calendar end in December 2012?
A: Just as the calendar you have on your kitchen wall does not cease to exist after December 31, the Mayan calendar does not cease to exist on December 21, 2012. This date is the end of the Mayan long-count period but then — just as your calendar begins again on January 1 — another long-count period begins for the Mayan calendar.

Q: Could a phenomena occur where planets align in a way that impacts Earth?
A: There are no planetary alignments in the next few decades, Earth will not cross the galactic plane in 2012, and even if these alignments were to occur, their effects on the Earth would be negligible. Each December the Earth and sun align with the approximate center of the Milky Way Galaxy but that is an annual event of no consequence.

Q: Is there a planet or brown dwarf called Nibiru or Planet X or Eris that is approaching the Earth and threatening our planet with widespread destruction?
A: Nibiru and other stories about wayward planets are an Internet hoax. There is no factual basis for these claims. If Nibiru or Planet X were real and headed for an encounter with the Earth in 2012, astronomers would have been tracking it for at least the past decade, and it would be visible by now to the naked eye. Obviously, it does not exist. Eris is real, but it is a dwarf planet similar to Pluto that will remain in the outer solar system; the closest it can come to Earth is about 4 billion miles.

Q: What is the polar shift theory? Is it true that the earth’s crust does a 180-degree rotation around the core in a matter of days if not hours?
A: A reversal in the rotation of Earth is impossible. There are slow movements of the continents (for example Antarctica was near the equator hundreds of millions of years ago), but that is irrelevant to claims of reversal of the rotational poles. However, many of the disaster websites pull a bait-and-shift to fool people. They claim a relationship between the rotation and the magnetic polarity of Earth, which does change irregularly, with a magnetic reversal taking place every 400,000 years on average. As far as we know, such a magnetic reversal doesn’t cause any harm to life on Earth. A magnetic reversal is very unlikely to happen in the next few millennia, anyway.

Q: Is the Earth in danger of being hit by a meteor in 2012?
A: The Earth has always been subject to impacts by comets and asteroids, although big hits are very rare. The last big impact was 65 million years ago, and that led to the extinction of the dinosaurs. Today NASA astronomers are carrying out a survey called the Spaceguard Survey to find any large near-Earth asteroids long before they hit. We have already determined that there are no threatening asteroids as large as the one that killed the dinosaurs. All this work is done openly with the discoveries posted every day on the NASA NEO Program Office website, so you can see for yourself that nothing is predicted to hit in 2012.

Q: How do NASA scientists feel about claims of pending doomsday?
A: For any claims of disaster or dramatic changes in 2012, where is the science? Where is the evidence? There is none, and for all the fictional assertions, whether they are made in books, movies, documentaries or over the Internet, we cannot change that simple fact. There is no credible evidence for any of the assertions made in support of unusual events taking place in December 2012.

Q: Is there a danger from giant solar storms predicted for 2012?
A: Solar activity has a regular cycle, with peaks approximately every 11 years. Near these activity peaks, solar flares can cause some interruption of satellite communications, although engineers are learning how to build electronics that are protected against most solar storms. But there is no special risk associated with 2012. The next solar maximum will occur in the 2012-2014 time frame and is predicted to be an average solar cycle, no different than previous cycles throughout history.

Addition information concerning 2012 is available on the Web, at:

• NASA Astrobiology Institute: “Nibiru and Doomsday 2012“
• Bad Astronomy: “The Planet X Saga: The Scientific Arguments in a Nutshell”
• Sky and Telescope Magazine: “2012: The Great Scare“

Also see Wikipedia or more. It seems well referenced. Even Science Daily mentions the cyclical nature of the Mayan Calendar.

December 21, 2012 is a Friday. I propose a huge “Another Unfounded Prediction Has Failed” Party for Saturday December 22, 2012. How nice that we will also be able to celebrate the Winter Solstice as well!

Originally posted by Neece at Heaving Dead Cats

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We are slowly going through the main logical fallacies, with examples and also with how to refute them. You can use this in all aspects of your life, whether it be science vs. pseudo-science, religion vs. atheism or agnosticism, the daily assault of advertising and consumerism, or simply to put your own belief systems to the test.

This page will have an introduction to each one. Click the title of the fallacy to read the full article.

First, some definitions:

• Logical: Reasoning or capable of reasoning in a clear and consistent manner. Reasonable.
• Fallacy: A deceptive, misleading or false notion or belief. A misleading or unsound argument.

Another thing that is really important as we get started is to keep in mind the difference between Fact versus Opinion, and the difference between Objective versus Subjective.

• Fact: something that actually exists; reality; truth. Something known to exist or to have happened. Something known to be true.
• Opinion: a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.

Pointing out that an issue is actually not based on fact, but rather an opinion, can end an argument that can never be solved. If I say that I make the best cookies in the world, that isn’t based on fact, simply my own opinion.

• Objective: not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased. Of or pertaining to something that can be known, or to something that is an object or a part of an object; existing independent of thought or an observer as part of reality.
• Subjective: existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought (opposed to Objective)

Our Resources:

• The Skeptic’s Guide To The Universe
• The New England Skeptical Society
• Skeptoid
• Wikipedia
• Logical Fallacies.info
• Fallacy Files

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The Fine Art of Baloney Detection

Information from Carl Sagan and Michael Shermer (video) about how to detect baloney with skeptical thinking.

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Taxonomy of the Logical Fallacies

This is from Fallacy Files. You can see a chart showing the relationships of all of the fallacies. This can be helpful in getting to know the categories and how fallacies are similar.

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How To Argue

There is actually a right way and lots of wrong ways to have a discussion or argument. The Skeptic’s Guide 5×5 did an episode on how to argue. This is a fairly close transcript of the podcast.
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Correlation and Causation

Just because two events occur together does not mean that one caused the other. Or just because two variables have a connection does not automatically imply that one causes the other.

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Appeal to Emotion

This logical fallacy uses emotion to prove a point without resorting to actual facts.

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Cherry-Picking

This logical fallacy occurs when you count the hits and ignore the misses. It is used when only certain quotes, data, studies or research are used to support an argument while ignoring other valid and credible quotes, data, studies and research. In my personal experience, cherry-picking is rampant in the religious population.

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Cross-posted from Heaving Dead Cats with links to articles on Morgantown Atheists.

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Still, I think there’s validity to refuting such arguments as practice. According to a recent Gallup poll, only 39% of Americans say they believe in the theory of evolution, while 1/4 say they do not believe in the theory.

Lucky for us, Brent told me about a set of videos that go through Pendleton’s step by step and refute them. How awesome!

Here is the first one of 4. (about 10 minutes long):

For the rest of the videos, click here. Or you can probably get them through the web page of this video.

Cross-posted from Heaving Dead Cats

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It would be awesome if we all could comment or email Neece with refutations against all the lies and logical fallacies used. If you send in an email, I’ll post it to share with everyone. Or comment below and we can all add to it little by little.

Cross-posted from Heaving Dead Cats

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